“I don’t view this as a heavy subject,” says actor Steve Harris about Shondaland’s first scripted podcast, #Matter, which follows a unique aftermath in the police shooting of a young Black man. “I view it as a subject. When it’s something that happens [this often], it’s not out of the norm. That’s not what we’re getting to — the problem is, it’s been normalized.”
In #Matter, from writer-director Dylan Brown, Harris — known for his numerous TV and film roles over the last three decades, including on The Practice and Diary of a Mad Black Woman — plays Jayce Shaw, a former pro footballer who’s not ready to let go of his glory days. After Shaw lends his car to a friend’s son, he’s unwittingly pulled into a fateful event where a young Black man, the friend’s son, is killed at the hands of white police officers. And Jayce, an old friend of the father, Gerald, finds himself involved and has to figure out who he really is in order to reconcile his and Gerald’s past.
“Dylan deserves all the credit for persevering [with bringing this story to light],” says Harris, who was attached to the project since its very early days as a script. “It was timely then and it’s timely now and it will be timely.”
With the final episode of #Matter barely in our rearview mirror, Shondaland sits down with Harris to talk some spoilers of the eight-episode series, including understanding the deeper level of being a former football star, Jayce’s many layers, and what it was like as an actor to enter the podcasting space for the first time.
And if you haven't already, be sure to listen and subscribe to #Matter at Apple, iHeart, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
VALENTINA VALENTINI: How did you get involved in this project?
STEVE HARRIS: I’ve known Dylan Brown for over seven years now. He presented this story to me when it was in script form, and we were hopefully going to try and do it as a movie, and I was helping him to do that. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to get that accomplished for him. Then, years later, Shondaland jumped in and wanted it as a podcast. I’ve always been tied to the project with him whenever he wanted to get it done, and I was just happy that we were able to do it. It’s a great piece. And I enjoyed getting the chance to play in podcasts, which is different for me. But to be perfectly honest, I’m hoping that at some point they also turn this into a visual art as well, because I think it more than holds its water.
VV: You’ve done voice acting before, yes? But what about podcasting?
SH: I’ve played some animated characters and done some voice work for commercials, but this was my first time in the podcast world. It was quite a bit of fun. … It was a lot of fun, actually. The topic might not have been all of that, but working on the topic was fun. Having been with the material for so long, it was great to have the opportunity to give it legs and do different interpretations beyond what was originally created. I also had a head start in developing Jayce into what I wanted him to be, having known the script for so long. It was a great process getting to play with these other actors with just sound and no camera.
VV: How is it different from live acting or screen acting for you?
SH: I’m always living in the moment, and that will never change, but when you’re acting on a stage or in front of a camera, you have the benefit of facial features and hand gestures, body movements. An audience both sees you and hears you, and for the most part, those are the only two senses that create all of your reactions. With this, you only have sound, so when you may think you’re doing it — performing a particular emotion — you’re not. So, I have to understand that even though in the moment I’m living it as the character, nobody’s seeing my features, my gestures. So, I still need to make sure the listener hears and feels these gestures just by using my voice.
VV: Were you always going to play Jayce, or did you and Dylan talk about other possibilities?
SH: When we were talking about it as a film, I was either going to be Jayce or the lead, Gerald. I had played football in college and have been around a lot of athletes and professional athletes in my time. I’ve seen how they were years ago when they were in their prime and have seen them now that they’re not. I had a connection with that arc in regard to playing Jayce. I also had a connection with Gerald because I knew cats like him — guys who’d spent time in the joint, loyal guys who, when they get out, they usually go back in, but every now and again one of them will become a soldier for something else. They’ll become an advocate for not being in the gang. Then they get a certain amount of respect because of what they’ve already done in life. At least back in the day, that used to be the case. So, I had connections to both characters, but when we were embarking on the podcast version, Jayce was really who I wanted to be. Perhaps if I were a little younger, Gerald may have been the endeavor that I wanted to undertake, but I think Amin Joseph was fantastic as Gerald.
VV: Why did you feel that stronger connection to Jayce now?
SH: There are so many levels to him and so many different people he has to be because he just can’t reconcile with what he is. That fascinates me because I think that’s how people are in everyday life. People have a hard time reconciling what they are and so they create a lot of other things to be or do. Some people live in the highlights of their lives, so if your highlight was in high school, you’re still talking about your high school basketball or football accolades all the time. Every time you meet them that’s all they bring up. But you have to press on, and in this situation, it was inescapable for Jayce, and he had to press on because of the situation he was put in.
VV: What’s your take on Jayce?
SH: He’s a former football player that was a star, which is different from a guy who, even if he lasted 10, 15 years, had anonymity. But Jayce was a star at one point, much the way Lawrence Taylor was a star back in the day. He’s one of the greatest players, but when his career was over, as a lot of athletes fall into, he had to figure out, “What do you do next?” And he tried all the things, like you use your name, you try to be a broadcaster, but now, Jayce is down the road. Instead of two years removed from playing, he’s 10 years removed, and nobody’s talking to him about that stuff now. So, he opens up a bar, sort of cliché thing to do for a former pro athlete, and he calls it “Jayce 42” because that’s his name and his number — what he has to hang his whole life on. This situation with Niles and Gerald causes him to come to present and be what he has to be. He has to reconcile with what he did to a close friend before he got all the accolades, fame, and money. He has to reconcile with the fact that he may have potentially caused the cops to pull Niles over because of the style of car he lent him. We all know that if Niles was driving around in a Chevy Malibu, he wouldn’t have gotten pulled over because he would have fit that profile for police officers. And now, he has to man up, and when there’s a moment that he can choose to leave or stay in the situation and help his old friend, he chooses to stay. At that moment, he grows up. It took potential death for him to grow up.
There are so many different colors to Jayce that you only have a short amount of time to pull out, which makes it a fascinating role to play. That’s why, when you asked me that question earlier about whether I was always going to play Jayce, now I think I always had to play him, somebody like me who really follows football and knows a story like Lawrence Taylor’s story — I’m going to truly understand that connection.
VV: Speaking of that, you were a star football player at your college and also studied drama. Those are not two activities that usually go together.
SH: [Laughs] I’m designed as an oxymoron. It was quite an endeavor, to say the least. I will say this, though — football is a team sport. I can hate your guts even if you’re on my team, but when we play against another team, I’m there as if I’m your brother, no matter what. There’s an obligation to the team to play your position and make the play and do whatever it takes and support the team and all its members, especially during game time. And my friends, the football players, they did come to see me act. The theater people never came to see me play ball. I think one time. It was one time a theater friend came to a game. That showed me a real difference in what was going on in the two realms.
VV: That’s such an interesting anecdote — one point for athletes, zero for actors, right? Back to the podcast, though — and I talked about this with Dylan: The story is entertainment and meant to be entertaining, but it’s also dealing with very heavy subject matter. Is this something you thought about at all?
SH: Dylan wrote this before George Floyd’s death. Now, we’ve had George Floyd and several other events similar to George Floyd that have come out in the media. You can’t run away from the heaviness of that, but I don’t view #Matter as a heavy subject. What the police do, it’s normalized now. And I don’t think what people get when they talk about the police force is that police forces aren’t connected. They are independent. All of them are independent, and they are not one sole entity under the same umbrella. So, we have all of these incidents all across the country, and what it says to me is this is what’s being independently taught in all those places because they’re all having the same occurrences.
Another issue is, in the Black community, we understand that we don’t live in a world that is fair. So, when I look at people or situations, I’m not starting from a place of fairness. I also don’t think people really realize how much power the police have, because most people who aren’t white don’t tend to view the police the same way that white people do. They’re supposed to be there to protect and serve, but when you’ve been in these other communities that haven’t been given a fair shake, you don’t think of the police as protecting and serving. But no matter who you were, when you see the cherries on top going around, nothing can make you pull over as fast as those can. And if you’re Black, you raise your hands, and you say, “Okay, I’m gonna reach in and get my license and registration.” I’ve been doing it for 50 years because I’ve grown up with a different way of understanding the police. So, no, I don’t think this podcast is heavy in that light at all. And I think some people have assumed that Dylan wrote this after the George Floyd events occurred, but he created this before that, and today, they’re still playing out in the same way. We’ve seen it just in the last few weeks. It’s still pretty prevalent.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Valentina Valentini is a London-based entertainment, travel, and food writer and also a Senior Contributor for Shondaland. Elsewhere she has written for Vanity Fair, Vulture, Variety, Thrillist, Heated, and The Washington Post. Her personal essays can be read in the Los Angeles Times, Longreads, and her tangents and general complaints can be seen on Twitter at @ByValentinaV.
Get Shondaland directly in your inbox: SUBSCRIBE TODAY
